Leisure Centers are OP... and not even a little

Not having played the alpha, i went into this round with good hopes and a good helping of naivete. I still have the latter part, but sitting here crunching some numbers… it hurts.

Leisure centers (and ALL other former food and population buildings) are completely out of whack.
The numbers below represent their output normalised to units of metal, compared to the equal-tier metal mine. This is easily done: 10 pop = 1 soldier = 30 met/ 20 min = 60 met. There are some caveats with this calculation, but not much. To be fair, the values below represent a planet with 130% abundancy (average for g1)

Population + + Metal
Farm 1800 390 Metal Mine
Leisure Centre 12000 1170 Core Metal Mine
Hydroponics Lab 5400 1170 Core Metal Mine
Hydroponics Dome 54000 11700 Strip Metal Mine
Hospital 16200 11700 Strip Metal Mine

This is just dumb. The LC outproduces it’s metal counterpart by a factor of 10. The outcome is predictable: there’s just no way for anyone to do any form of meaningful damage against a properly turtling opponent, and to my dismay, everyone who played the alpha is turtling like it’s the new krumping.

This means one of two things:

  • this problem was spotted by the players and not properly reported
  • this problem was reported but ignored.

More than any other balancing issue, this breaks the game. There simply is no way to outproduce anyone who clicks leisure center and then living quarters (ofcourse, non-demolishable, diminishing the value of the planet even further), no way to damage them, and no incentive to attack.
This kills the game, pure and simple. Fix it, pretty please with sugar on top.

Unlike Core Metal though, you can only build 1 LC…

Thank fk for that!
You can just switch to HLs though, they also outweigh the CMM by a factor of almost 5.

So, I agree with the shift from food to just workers, I just think the balancing numbers are off.

Here is my suggestion for fix.
Make farms and hydroponics have demonising returns. Say lowering by 50/150 for each subsequent building down to a minimum of 50/150.
Shift LC/H to .25% and .5% growth not fixed (so better late game worse mid game?)
Leave the Dome as is. It takes so much to get there may as well reward those that do.


Remove LC/H or change them to mitigate new combat features.
E.g. LC allows population to grow even if a planet is blockaded
Hospital decreases the effect of orbital bombardment.

Assign a crew number for each spaceship, have them permanently consume workers once complete equal to that number.

Put caps on the population size of a settlement based on technology level. E.g. outpost can only have 150k, colonies 500k, no cap on planets with metros.

This isn’t an easy fix now the game is live, but is definitely something that’s on the board to be addressed.

I’ll be making a post about the beta soon, with an update on how I’m going to proceed, which should help address things like this.

One thing you can do to bandage things is make LQs demolishable. I don’t understand why they aren’t.

I’ll also say that for stuff this broken, I would not mind it if you change things mid-round. It says beta right in the URL, we all know what we are in for, and any new idea (even mine! :D) might have their own problems, we don’t want to wait until next round until we spot those.

Demolishing storage structures is problematic because of displaced workers, the engine doesn’t allow removal of a storage unit if there are children inside it, and simply killing all the children inside it may kill more than expected because of the (unseen by the player) distribution between structures.

I’ve got some proof of concept (although not complete) code designed to try and reorganise everything away from the structure being destroyed, but it’s not complete yet.

might want to update the manual in the meantime… LQs are listed as demolishable

Oof, can’t actually fix that…

The manual is generated from game data, and I left behind a ‘Destroy_Living_Quarters’ unit in the XML, it just doesn’t have an action assigned to it so can’t be used…

oopsie! :smiley:

Also, just a lc coat less resources than Hidrops, gives 3x the amount and then just make a habitat each 24t.
It’s like 300k ppl each 100t (30k soldiers) which are for sure, a lot until t500 art least.

But I thought that was the idea.
Massive starfights and less invasions.
Less ppl reduced to HW, less rain attacks, and thus, more active players for more time.

If that is the idea, then fair enough… though I doubt it works that way. Whats the point in territorial warfare if you cant take or lose territory? The solution is not to allow everyone to build insurmountable bunkers, but to make the drop off to the inner ring galaxies less steep, so those become viable places to live aswell. That way you actually get to play a meaningful game, even if you chose to stay away from the high-risk frenzy of G1

I don’t know the idea.
It’s just that as it’s coded by now, you could even be given a free uninvadable sector to fast Colo, and then move to the fight zone, to battle for rewards till the end of the round.
Destroying fleets would lead to gather scrap, and the one first to build the gigantic Sochori scrap statue would win the round

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And there I was thinking about some kind of “siege warfare” which could solve those issues or spice things up a little bit.

Turtling is definitely an issue. And your right that the LC is extremely powerful. Its probably the first building built after every single colony on 90% off players planets without fail.

But thats just a tweak thhe numbers fix which is easy.

I still think turtling is an issue, and agree witht the point that the issue lies with the falloff from gal 1 to inner ring.

IMHO you do the following.
Increase space on G1 planets by 5% More effective when fully built up but takes a while (time to fight over them) to get to that point.
Increase the possible % on Inner ring for 1 random resource type up to 135%

For example the best G1 planet might be 150% 150% 150%

The best Inner ring planet might be 135% 120% 120%

That is still a significant difference. given that its unlikely to get the BEST planet.

What this would achieve is that G1 still has the best, the fastest to develop, and the strongest once fully built up planets.

The inner ring also offers late game relevance when planets are fully optimised.

Back to food/pop. Linking back to the LC issue.
Its a trade off. Yes population is easy to farm now. However so are soldiers… They cost the same resources as ships. If you dont build ships and only build soldiers then you can still outproduce soldiers vs turtled planets. However…

A new players will probably try and play safe with their G1 planet as its their pride and joy. We certainly dont want to remove the option to turtle as players leave because they lose their flagship planet.

plenty of food for thought. pardon the pun.

What about setting fix the amount of 100k soldiers, not allowing to get more??

Or tbh, I thought that the workers were consumed to make the soldiers.
It might be interesting if the workers were eliminated. So there would be a balance between attacking and defending while making soldiers but also reducing turtling